Comments on Baptists Today Blogs: Two messages to renounce

I have looked for level headed analysis of Baptist...

2009-11-13T12:52:30.900-05:00

I have looked for level headed analysis of Baptist Life all over the internet. I have enjoyed reading your posts. This one, however, has a disturbing subject. I have, over the years come in contact with many KJV only believers. This church, as has been commented, is worshiping the book and not the Christ.
Book burning was something the Nazi Party did in the 1930's and 1940's under Hitler.
Fanatics abound everywhere. Pastors and churches like Amazing Grace Baptist Church are why the world laughs at earnest Christians.
This assembly has such a narrow scope of God's forgiveness that it comes across as a divisive force in our greater good. It is humorous that FOX News carried the story, most of the believers I know think that they are an extension of God and His work. This portrayal as a news item is a sanctioning of this horrid event.
I think many times that these believers think that Jesus was a white anglo-saxon protestant and not a Jew. They also must think that Jesus and the apostles spoke English from the 17th century.
It is refreshing to note that this group is only one family and a few more, kinda' like the Phelps church.
Truth shall set you free.

My apologies...it is one thing to hold firm to con...

2009-10-22T19:50:43.702-04:00

My apologies...it is one thing to hold firm to convictions, but this has to be one of the most disappointing displays by a "pastor" setting an example to his/her church.

Thank you for using your blog to call attention to this event.

We've probably said about all we need to say on th...

2009-10-22T13:14:51.236-04:00

We've probably said about all we need to say on this subject, friends. If we do, let's stick to the issue at hand, please.

Mark, Though there are many more qualified to com...

2009-10-22T08:55:51.675-04:00

Mark,

Though there are many more qualified to comment on the textual tradition of the New Testament, the "Received Text" is not the so-called "autograph" text. Textual criticism exists to establish the Greek and Hebrew texts of the New and Old Testaments. In these copies we find discrepancies of words, phrases and verses from manuscript to manuscript. Textual criticism provides a more solid foundation for the Bible than accepting one man's text from the 15th or 16th century.

Furthermore, that is why it is best to study Greek and Hebrew, as well as to read multiple translations.

I am sure that you do not accept the role of the Bishop in church life. Well, that is why the KJV translators used the word Bishop instead of overseer or elder. It established the Church of England's office of the Bishop. Is that from God's inerrant inspiration of the KJV? If so, you need to leave the Landmarkist tradition and become Anglican.

Yes, I do display gross contempt for misguided ignorance from one who claims to be led by the Lord to shepherd a flock and raise a family.

Mark, Point taken about Acts. However, where are...

2009-10-22T06:37:03.337-04:00

Mark,

Point taken about Acts.

However, where are the DVD sets of movies and TV shows that define our culture? Where are the harlequin romance novels? Where are the pornographic magazines?

These are noticeably absent from Mark Grizzard's bonfire.

Instead, we have Billy Graham. We know how perverse his life is! (sarcasm) What about Rick Warren? He is certainly an abomination to the gospel. Though some authors like the TBN preachers and LaHaye write nothing more than religious junk food, are they more deserving to be a part of this bonfire.

Even the works of more liberal scholars are missing from his bonfire.

Mark, I will recant on my claim that all book burning is an act of violence if you recant on your support for your seeming support of Grizzard's ridiculous behavior. Sounds as if you have a little sympathy toward the KJV only movement.

I know folks who could benefit from the Bibles and books that he is burning.

So sad...

Joshua: "The scholars who are writing the modern ...

2009-10-21T22:57:20.389-04:00

Joshua: "The scholars who are writing the modern translations are simply using the avaiable manuscripts. As Dr. Cartledge said, some of these are better than the TR. Is using the best resources to best determine what the texts are saying a bad thing? Erasmus used what sources he had when compiling the TR and now we have more and, in ways, better resources to utilize."

The whole point of Mr. Grizzard's protest is that he does not believe what you have asserted. He believes that the so called Textus Receptus is is the true text and that the revised text takes away from and adds to the words of the Scriptures.

Mr. Grizzard does not believe that any Scriptures were lost and needed to be recovered late in the 19th century. And, for the record, neither do I. I do not, as you assert, believe that we - 2000 years after Christ - have "better" Scriptures than did our forefathers in any age since the Scriptures were completed.

Joshua: "Also, it is perfectly acceptable for two translations of the Bible to be different but still be accurate."

This is true and it is why Mr. Grizzard allowed that he wouldn't burn a Geneva Bible. If I understand it correctly, his protest was not about different wording of a translation which says the same thing. His protest was about missing and added texts.

Tim: "For all those who believe that the 'Received Text' on which the KJV was based was dropped out of heaven are completely mislead, as well as those who believe the KJV is an innerrant translation, as well as THE innerrant translation."

So Mr. Grizzard displays his contempt for books he considers wicked by burning them. And you display your contempt for what you consider his ignorance by gross exaggeration and characterization of his belief.

Tim: "However, even if one believes that about the KJV (as misguided as this thinking is), then leave the rest of us alone as well as these books."

I was not aware that Mr. Grizzard had done anything to you or anyone else. So far as the books, assuming they belonged to him, it is really no one's business what he does with them and if they don't like it the best thing to do would be to ignore him. In fact, if he had been ignored only a handful of people would have ever known what he did.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

April: "burning Bibles is not a violent act per s...

2009-10-21T22:34:11.031-04:00

April: "burning Bibles is not a violent act per say, it still seems violent."

Tim: "These are acts of violence. Remember other famous book-burners?"

The Book of Acts: "And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed."

For anyone who takes the Scriptures seriously, the burning of ungodly books is a wholesome act, a legitimate means of expressing contempt for that which is against God and conducive to the propagation of God's word.

So, from a Biblical perspective, the only arguable question here is whether or not the books Mr. Grizzard and his congregation burned were worthy of burning or worthy of preservation.

Mr. Grizzard sees them as worthy of burning because he sees them as corruptions of the true word of God. His reasoning is that they both add to and take away from the words of Scripture in violation of Jesus' warning at the end of the Revelation.

Fault him if you must for rejecting the theories of the modern attempts to "recover" the true text of the Scripture, but don't fault him for publicly expressing his contempt for that which he considers a perversion of the word of God.

And don't come off so self righteous about it, as if your institutions of "higher learning" do not hold the same scorn for Mr. Grizzard's opinions, even if they are more sophisticated in their censorship of those who disagree with them.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

How do KJV only people deal with the fact that Chr...

2009-10-21T20:44:34.655-04:00

How do KJV only people deal with the fact that Christians got along pretty well without the KJV for 1600 years? Martin Luther even figured out the whole reformation thing without it.

Just asking.

And how do they deal with the fact that good ole' King James gave the translators orders to make sure this version supported the ecclesiology of the Church of England? I wonder why KJV only folk don't also use the Book of Common Prayer...didn't kings and Anglicans have something to do with that as well?

Just asking.

I wonder how a new English translation commissioned by President Obama would go over, even if it followed the "textus receptus?" He is at least as popular with fundamentalist baptists today as King James was with non-conformists baptists of 17th century England!

Just asking!

Mark, These are acts of violence. Remember other ...

2009-10-21T10:10:26.729-04:00

Mark,

These are acts of violence. Remember other famous book-burners?

For all those who believe that the "Received Text" on which the KJV was based was dropped out of heaven are completely mislead, as well as those who believe the KJV is an innerrant translation, as well as THE innerrant translation. They certainly do not understand that the Received Text has a tradition of additions and deletions, just like NA27 and USB4.

However, even if one believes that about the KJV (as misguided as this thinking is), then leave the rest of us alone as well as these books. Do you mean to tell me he spent money on these books so that he could burn them? That does not sound like good stewardship either.

Standing up for one's beliefs is one thing, but if those beliefs are misguided...

Mr. Osgatharp, I'm unsure how you are able to see...

2009-10-21T10:01:03.123-04:00

Mr. Osgatharp,

I'm unsure how you are able to see the Bible burning as a stance against people "trying to recover the text of the Scriptures, as if they somehow had been lost and needed recovering." Modern translations attempt to do what the KJV attempted: to make the text readable for its audience. The scholars who are writing the modern translations are simply using the avaiable manuscripts. As Dr. Cartledge said, some of these are better than the TR. Is using the best resources to best determine what the texts are saying a bad thing? Erasmus used what sources he had when compiling the TR and now we have more and, in ways, better resources to utilize.

Also, it is perfectly acceptable for two translations of the Bible to be different but still be accurate. Greek and Hebrew do not operate the same way as English. Often a given word or phrase can be interpreted a number of different ways both in meaning and grammar. The Hebrew and Greek languages simply allow for a certain fluidity of interpretation (granted, the Hebrew more so than the Greek in my opinion).

As for adding or taking away from the scriptures, even the KJV technically does this. If you notice in the text there are italicized words. While these are usually conjunctions, these signify words that the translators added to make the text "work" better in English. In other words, these words aren't technically there in the manuscript. Are they faithful to the trajectory of the passage? We can probably assume so, and will for sake of argument. But if you're going to allow the KJV to add words to make the text more grammatically palatable, then you have to allow that other translations can be faithful to the trajectory and spirit of the passage while differing in the language.

I know Mr. Gizzard has the right to burn any book ...

2009-10-21T09:04:34.158-04:00

I know Mr. Gizzard has the right to burn any book belonging to him, but just because he has the right doesn't mean he should do it. Although, burning Bibles is not a violent act per say, it still seems violent. In my opinion violence breeds violence and narrow-mindedness breeds narrow-mindedness. It seems really sad that this man feels he should have to burn Bibles that are not KJV. If he doesn't like other translations he simply does not have to use them--burning is a bit unnecessary and silly to put it nicely.

Tony, You said, "Grizzard is welcome to believe ...

2009-10-20T21:28:12.113-04:00

Tony,

You said,

"Grizzard is welcome to believe the KJV is the preferable translation, but making a spectacle of burning other translations and books is an act of violence against hundreds of translators and authors who love God deeply."

Actually, Mr. Grizzard is welcome to burn any book he wishes so long as it belongs to him. This is not act of violence. Violence would be if he punched someone in the nose or someone's house down.

Mr. Grizzard's actions are a protest against what he sees as adding to or taking away from God's word. Jesus did have a fearsome warning against anyone who would do that. Jesus did also, by the way, "lace" His gospel with threats of hell for people who disagree with Him.

And, if you will excuse me for pointing up the painfully obvious, if you have two Bibles and one says one thing and another says something else, then someone somewhere down the line did, in fact add to or take away from the Scriptures.

And for the record, if you think Mr. Grizzard's protest is merely about "modern translations" of the Bible, you totally missed the point. His protest is not against translation, modern or otherwise. It is against those who presume to recover the text of the Scriptures, as if they had somehow been lost and needed recovering.

Mark Osgatharp
Wynne, Arkansas

Thanks for your analysis of why the Hebrew and Ara...

2009-10-20T16:02:54.183-04:00

Thanks for your analysis of why the Hebrew and Aramaic analysis of Barak Obama's name is wrong. You are correct. Actually Barak is from the Hebrew and Aramaic Baruch, meaning blessed. Whether he will be a blessing to America is another question...

Thanks for catching the typo, Brian. 'Preciate the...

2009-10-19T22:06:08.014-04:00

Thanks for catching the typo, Brian. 'Preciate the help!

I appreciate all of your thoughts and think that y...

2009-10-19T20:37:49.318-04:00

I appreciate all of your thoughts and think that you are right. I am in awe of your ability to translate the Hebrew. However, I do have to say that you must have had a typo at the end if you quoted John 14:6 which I believe you did. You typed "light" instead of "life." Thank-you for your blog!

I am well aware of both instances you site, which ...

2009-10-19T20:11:17.560-04:00

I am well aware of both instances you site, which I hope will mean the end to alot of this craziness. There have always been fringe "wingnuts" in religion, but they flew under the radar and had a very small field of influence. With the advent of the internet, their field of influence has broaden, but so has the "light" of honest scrutiny. I want to believe that the "heat of the light" will cause these nuts to "wilt away".

don't Christians have anything better to do with t...

2009-10-18T23:26:27.493-04:00

don't Christians have anything better to do with their time?

Where is the church in America headed...?